Ever felt puzzled by the term Individual Education Plans (IEPs)? Wondered what it truly means for your child's education? Well, we're pulling back the curtain on this concept with a deep dive into Ontario's IEP system, guided by standing guest expert Amy Yeung, a seasoned high school guidance counsellor and special education specialist. Her two decades of experience promise to shine a light on the real purpose of IEPs while offering invaluable insights for parents navigating these waters.
We'll be exploring the process of developing IEPs, illuminating the role of teachers in providing accommodations, and dissecting the approaches of different school boards. You'll learn about the tiered system of services and why a measured approach is key before leaping straight into an IEP. Amy's expert take will reframe your understanding of IEPs, focusing less on extra enrichment and more on providing tailored support to students with diverse learning needs.
We'll also delve into the significance of psychological evaluations, their role in identifying learning disabilities and ADHD, the costs, and wait times associated with these evaluations. Our conversation will stretch to curriculum modifications, how they impact a student's ability to earn high school credits and why these changes are often need to be monitored in elementary school.
Prepare to be enlightened, reassured, and armed with practical advice for your child's educational journey. With Amy by our side, we're making sense of IEPs, one step at a time.
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Get your quick and actionable tips, blog/podcast updates and curated children's book recommendations by joining Tara's Take the Newsletter HERE
You can also submit questions directly to me at info@taragratto.ca or by heading to our website HERE
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The music for this podcast is written and produced by Jazlyn B with the guidance of Sabine Ndalamba
Note: This podcast is created for educational purposes only. Any references links, resources or content are not intended as a substitute for medical or professional mental health advice.
Ever felt puzzled by the term Individual Education Plans (IEPs)? Wondered what it truly means for your child's education? Well, we're pulling back the curtain on this concept with a deep dive into Ontario's IEP system, guided by standing guest expert Amy Yeung, a seasoned high school guidance counsellor and special education specialist. Her two decades of experience promise to shine a light on the real purpose of IEPs while offering invaluable insights for parents navigating these waters.
We'll be exploring the process of developing IEPs, illuminating the role of teachers in providing accommodations, and dissecting the approaches of different school boards. You'll learn about the tiered system of services and why a measured approach is key before leaping straight into an IEP. Amy's expert take will reframe your understanding of IEPs, focusing less on extra enrichment and more on providing tailored support to students with diverse learning needs.
We'll also delve into the significance of psychological evaluations, their role in identifying learning disabilities and ADHD, the costs, and wait times associated with these evaluations. Our conversation will stretch to curriculum modifications, how they impact a student's ability to earn high school credits and why these changes are often need to be monitored in elementary school.
Prepare to be enlightened, reassured, and armed with practical advice for your child's educational journey. With Amy by our side, we're making sense of IEPs, one step at a time.
___
Get your quick and actionable tips, blog/podcast updates and curated children's book recommendations by joining Tara's Take the Newsletter HERE
You can also submit questions directly to me at info@taragratto.ca or by heading to our website HERE
------
The music for this podcast is written and produced by Jazlyn B with the guidance of Sabine Ndalamba
Note: This podcast is created for educational purposes only. Any references links, resources or content are not intended as a substitute for medical or professional mental health advice.
Hello and welcome to Taras Take a podcast about parenting, education and life with kids. Today's episode is going to be focused on the education component. I have my standing-guess expert Abyon joining me. She's a high school guidance counselor, a special education specialist and a veteran of education for over 20 years now. We are going to be talking about IEPs today, or individual education plans. There's been a lot of questions about what those are, who they serve, what's the purpose. How do we get them organized? We will be specifically talking about Ontario, because that is where both of us are located. However, the concept of an IEP applies pretty much worldwide, specifically in North America. Welcome, amy, it's good to have you. Thank you for spending some time on your evening with me. I know life has been a little hectic recently.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me back. I always enjoyed these conversations with you and for sure it's been a hectic time. It always is a hectic time in school. I'm sure parents can attest to that. There's always something happening Definitely lots of IEPs happening. That has actually been something I've been working on the last few weeks. This is a great topic.
Speaker 1:It's the season, it's the right season for the conversation. Actually, I think that's maybe a great place to start. There is actually a rule in Ontario If your child has an IEP, they have 30 days to get it in place, which I think is what you're referring to.
Speaker 2:Yes, 30 school days. The school has to update the student's IEP and consult with parents and have it ready for the parents to view within the first 30 days of school. That's where we're at now. We're hitting the 30-day mark.
Speaker 1:Amazing. That's not stressful for anybody at all. Let's start with the super basics. What is an IEP? I'm going to start with a couple of the myths, that is, some people are like I really want my child to have an IEP because it will help them have enrichment. Essentially, that's what they say to me. They don't use that word exactly, but there's some idea that sometimes documents within school whether it's IEP or a gifted designation means that your child's going to have a special form of learning, that outside of special education, but more in terms of harder work, more academic rigor, more individualized attention. I think a good place to start is that that's not what an IEP is actually for. What is it in as easy to explain terms? What is an IEP and who was it? Or what was it created for?
Speaker 2:Well, an IEP is actually a special education document. It was created for students who don't quite fit or their needs are not met by the traditional classroom teaching method. For those of us who are educated recently but recently it could be in the last 20, 30 years time is sometimes hard to grow Flexible. But when we think about school, we think about a classroom where, traditionally, you have the teachers at the front of the class, you have the students sitting in the rows and the students are and I'm working in high school, by the way. In high school this is the vision you have the teacher at the front, you have the students in the seat, they're taking notes, there's a lot of note taking happening and then eventually they're going to be testing. That type of learning is great for a lot of students, but not for all students. For some students, it really, really, really does not work. Because of the way they are, because of their particular learning profile, that type of education or that type of pedagogy does not work for them. An IEP was created for students who do not fit that traditional academic setting. What an IEP actually does? It highlights what are the things that the child needs beyond what is offered traditionally in the classroom. In my career of 20 years, I've seen this shift of what is considered outside of the regular classroom. But generally, that's what an IEP is. It's something that allows a child to get a type of accommodation that they normally wouldn't get in a regular classroom.
Speaker 1:Awesome. I think I'll do a little bit about the elementary layer. I think this is where some of the complexity comes in, because if you've been following my podcast, you already know this. Actually, one of our podcasts was one of the best this week, our podcast on preschool to. Yeah, when I got the feedback it was one of the top three. One of the things that's happening in elementary is that kids' needs aren't being met, especially their needs, their movement needs. A lot of parents are worried that their kids may be neurodiverse. Another framework for thinking about how a classroom typically operates would be neurodiverse versus neurotypical this idea that neurotypical is how everybody in the classroom or how the classroom is structured. If you're a neurodiverse learner, you are not learning in the same way as others in the classroom. That's the, I guess, science-y words that go with it. One of the things that's happening in elementary is especially with very young. Some parents are questioning if there may be a learning need or a differentiated learning approach needed for their child. Some of the confusion that's coming in is it's not necessarily that they have a different learning need. It's that their body needs aren't being met or they're just not developmentally there yet. When we're talking about young learners. They don't typically do psych testing which we'll talk about in a minute until they're like 6'7" grade 1, 2. If you have a younger child and you're wondering, there's a bit of a process that can go before an IEP would be needed or warranted. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen with younger children. There are exceptionalities in every sphere. But I do know there are a lot more parents in early elementary that are finding ways to try and navigate the system. One of the things they're asking is is there something here? Is there something? I'm going to use the terms that I hear which is is there something wrong with my child? Is there something not working? Is there not? One of the things I do talk about with parents is it may just be that we've got to look at some other pieces first. It doesn't mean that there's not neurodiversity there or that an IEP might not be necessary, but there is a lot of cases where kids aren't having their body needs met or aren't having, so that can be a piece that we can solve outside of the IEP process. I just wanted to give a little bit of a layer about elementary because there is less of a sitting, although the transition between we talked about this in our last podcast. The transition between kindergarten and grade 1 is really hard for some kids because they go from a play-based learning environment to a sitting-based environment and some kids find that transition really difficult. So that sometimes raises some flags for some educators and parents and things like that.
Speaker 2:I think we also have to remember and I know this is hard to remember sometimes as parents is that children only do develop at different times. Yeah, like they really do. Like I, even in high school, I've seen. I see students come in in ninth grade. You know their skill levels that are certain a certain like at a certain point, and then I watched them develop over the course of four years. And some students do develop, you know, quicker than others and I think that because we're just um, we do worry about you know if there's something wrong with her and I, you know. I think about this. Sometimes. It's like, oh, my kid isn't like the other kids, is there something?
Speaker 1:wrong with?
Speaker 2:them and, you know, I think it's important to understand it and to realize that everyone actually does develop at a different time. Yeah just because this a child doesn't do something right now, it doesn't mean they won't be able to do it later on. It just means that right now is not the time for them. And it's hard because you know where they're going into this very large system and there's all these standards and expectations are supposed to meet. So it is hard to understand that sometimes your kid may not meet that expectation in that moment and that's actually okay, like if you work towards it, it'll happen. So, like I think, when you talk about understanding the other pieces, you know, before jumping into having a developing an IEP for a child, I think it is important to look at those pieces too, because sometimes it is a developmental thing. It's not that the child can't do it, it's just they're not ready to yeah for whatever reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think a great layer to add to that is the IEP process is not a short process and that's not a bad thing. I think, when we're parents and we're stressed and I have been here and I have been here for both students and for my own personal children when we, when we're worried about something, when we're trying to problem solve something, we want a quick solution, and the IEP is not a quick solution. It's actually not a quick solution at all. It's a long term solution and it's one that we have to be really mindful of year to year, which is one of the reasons Amy was just reviewing. So let's let's take into that what is the process? We're going to specifically talk about Ontario, but what is the process involved in IEP? There's kind of a couple different ways that that it gets developed. What are those two sort of ways?
Speaker 2:and I'll also add the extra layer which also depends on the board. So some boards. They're changing the way the IEP is are done. In fact, like you know, some boards are moving towards not creating an IEP right away. For for a student, yeah, they may ask a teacher to try certain accommodations to see if they work, and track that for a while, and then you know later on if and when I say later on I'm talking about a couple months, like this is not trying for a week, and so you know you know you try and combinations for a couple months or even longer, adjust what might need to be adjusted to see if those adjustments work. The idea is, you know, to try and accommodate the child in the class and the teacher gives the child whatever is they need. That is sustainable, right, the teachers. So things like allowing a child to make sure time to finish something. So, again, like you know, my context is high school, in a high school, or used to things like time tests and things like that. So the idea of, you know, allowing a child a little bit of extra time to finish a test if they need it, or maybe making a shorter test, and you know to accommodate them that way. Even I'm going to talk about the Ontario literacy test which students taking grade 10.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's the.
Speaker 2:UKO, but in particular the. Ontario secondary school literacy test now allows everyone to have extra time, Right, Right? So something like that. Like things are changed over time. So you know, some some boards are saying, well, why jump to having an IEP on a student right away when the teacher can actually accommodate them with these they're called like tier one accommodations things that could work for everyone in the class would be beneficial. Things that are sustainable, that the teacher could provide, that could really support some, some of the children's learning, so that's sort of like. So the first step is to try things in the classroom and see what might work, and sometimes that's enough, right, Some students go. You know, I just need that extra time, or even not so much they needed the time, but they need the the not to have the pressure of time.
Speaker 1:Right, it makes a difference, yeah, so there's that, you know the.
Speaker 2:There's the begins. You know the beginning part is in the classroom, the parents and the teachers, they work together to figure out, okay, what accommodations might we try for a particular child that might work for them. And so the teachers try that for a while and then they, they may tweak things and then so, if after a certain period of time, like those accommodations are not quite working, like meaning, like that's not really helping the child move towards, you know the standard, then the discussion is okay, well, what's next? So then the discussion now goes beyond just the classroom teacher and the parent. It brings in other people in the school that might be able to support, and so in, you know, in an elementary school we might be talking about the vice principal, might be talking about a special education teacher in the school, that's what we call that, the in school team. So those are the people in the school that might be able to offer the student a little bit more support. However that may look, that's what the in school team is for. And so the in school team might say, okay, like, so the teachers try these accommodations. Well, is there something else that the special education teacher can kind of come in and work with the student for bidding, kind of observe and see it and go from there Right. So it's a long process. It takes weeks, sometimes months, of trying things and then after a while you know some students they might be okay with that second level service. We call that like this, the second tier, and sometimes the second tier includes maybe even a social worker. Sometimes it includes, like you know, basically some other support personnel that most students wouldn't access in the mainstream classroom. So there might be a little bit of support like second tier. And then where it gets you know it gets more in depth is if, even if with that we call that the second tier supports is the child is still not meeting standard, then we look at maybe getting testing right to figure out what is it like, what is happening in terms of the child's learning profile. That is like why are, why are they not being successful in whatever environment they're in? So then that's like the next level. That includes, you know, people from the board, school psychologists, which is like a board, and then like there's specially consultant and then there's another meeting that comes, you know, with that and that's like a school support team. So here are things like in school team and school support team. What's the difference? School support team includes people that work for the board, central departments like psychology, social work, special education. So those, those people are invited from the central level. These are not in school people, they're people from outside the school, but they do work for the school board. So that is basically like the highest level within the school and at school. School support team, or SST as we call it. There's a lot of acronyms and special ed, by the way, a lot of acronyms and education. All my friends are always like. Why do you?
Speaker 1:guys have to have an acronym for everything.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, in school team is so long we say IST, school support team, SST, so SST is is where then, as a team, with the parents and the board personnel and the school personnel, that's when the decision is made for the students to have an IP developed for them, and that IP would be based on the data going all the way back to, like the beginning, where the teacher was trying some accommodations, trying things within the classroom, and then they, you know, so that the school support team would look back and see what has been done for the students and then you know if what has been done is not quite working, not well enough for the student to meet standard then, or even approach standard. When we say meet standard, I'm talking about like with the students who are really struggling. They're probably, if we're going to talk about levels. So in. Ontario. Level three is the standard, the students who get IEPs. We're talking about students who are like level one, right, Right.
Speaker 1:Or below grade level.
Speaker 2:Yes, and even below Level one is more like it's about 50%.
Speaker 1:Let's say Right If we're talking about percentages.
Speaker 2:Level two is probably like 60-ish and then level three, which is provincial standard, is in the 70s, so 75-ish if we're talking about percents. So by the time a student reaches the level where they need, they're at school support team and they need an IEP to develop for them. We're talking about like they're not. They're like it making level one and below. Students in the level two area that are approaching standard would probably be okay with things like a level one in class supports, level two, you know, if there's like maybe a special teacher that could work with them. You know most students in the level two would be okay with that, where the school would really focus its resources in terms of IEPs. We're now talking about level one students like the ones who are really like, really needing, and we're trying to figure out why that is. So this process can take a long time. Parents ask about testing, and testing is not something like a lot of school boards. They don't just give tests if parents request it. First of all, it's costly.
Speaker 1:Very costly.
Speaker 2:It's very costly, yeah, and for people who are who- have done it privately, know how costly it is, and so a lot of boards they won't test the student unless it's for programming within the board, right, and so you know when we, when we get requests for like well, I just want to see where my child is at in terms of the levels, you know it has to be a very specific purpose and so it could take like a year, a couple of years. If we're talking about getting tested, we're talking about getting an IEP. Again, it's a long process. So first you have to do the trying and the tweaking and then more trying, and then you go through the meetings and then you know by the time you get to something like the SST, where it's really decided. Yeah, you know what I think. We think this child really needs an IEP. We're probably looking at least a year Right Now. It used to be the time these would be shorter, but because our world is really changing in terms of what is available in terms of accommodations, I think the idea is now like you know why? Why do we want to give a child an IEP right away, make them feel like they're different, when there's actually a lot of things available, a lot of technologies available now to support children. When I think about my time, like when I first started teaching until now, things really have evolved in terms of like. So it used to be, you know, a student that would need something like a speech to text. You know, speech to text is where you speak to the computer and it types for you and this is really great for, you know, students who are really have really strong verbal comprehension, verbal communication skills, but perhaps have a lot of difficulty with typing or writing. So speech to text is a really great tool and it used to be. You know, I remember students would have to have, like had their testing, they would have to qualify to get a special education claim and then this claim they would purchase like a computer for the child and it would have a speech to text. Software Like this is how it used to be 20 years ago, like they had to go through all these layers. Now we just pick up our phone and we can do it and it works. And we can just dictate and it types like that, like that technology. The technology has evolved so much that a lot of tools that we used to have to like, really ask, like, look, for now that you can just get it like on your phone, Right, they're readily available, really readily available, and, in fact, a lot of like. If we look, I don't know how many people are there Windows users, but if you're a Windows user you know there's even an accessibility center, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Google Chrome has that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Google Chrome has, like, there's just so much out there now. So you know, the idea is like why do we need to put all these layers in order for children to access these technologies already there? So the idea is to incorporate those technologies into the classroom so that, you know, the needs of children can be met with all these practices that we can now build in. It's no longer that special actually to have to do use speech to text, which I think is actually a great thing, because now you're making it normal for people to use these technologies so that the people who really need it don't feel singled out. Right, and I've worked with a lot of students who have been embarrassed to use speech to text because it was such a weird thing. I guess, like you know, they're like well, why do I have to use it and other people don't? But now I'm like well, everyone uses it. Right, it makes life easier, Exactly so I think, in terms of what you know, what we need in IEP4 has changed Right. I think approach to education has changed. The idea that we need to have more inclusive learning spaces, like that's becoming more important. I mean, the system isn't perfect. There's still a lot of students who have a hard time finding themselves in the system and finding, you know, a place that works for them, but I think it's a lot easier now than it used to be. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I definitely do. I mean, I think, to speak to one of your points, that I think is one of the reasons I thought this podcast would be valuable. Getting an IEP isn't always the solution to the challenge. Now it can be right. So there are kids who get tested and they need that, like it's known right. It's like we have this known challenge that needs to be sort of addressed and that's what the IEP is Right.
Speaker 2:Sometimes they need a very specific kind of programming that they can only access if they get tested and they are identified by the school board as requiring, you know, a certain kind of programming.
Speaker 1:But I think that's it's not.
Speaker 2:It's it's. I wouldn't say it's rare, but it's like it's definitely a much higher situation than we think.
Speaker 1:But I think the flip is. I think in our quest to find solutions to assuming that every child should be level one plus plus, or A plus or 90s plus, I think part of one of the reasons that schools have started to like make a bigger process in this IEP situation is what we talked about earlier. Sometimes kids just need to develop differently and some kids just need longer. So I talked to a lot of families about, like, some kids who learn how to read in kindergarten and some kids who don't want to read until closer to grade two. But there's this real pressure that if you're not like everybody else, there's something wrong. And that's not to say that there aren't markers that we can be aware of as educators and as parents, but there's also sort of some real sort of validity to we don't need to push everything so far. And an IEP may not be the answer to the thing that you're trying to figure out. It may be finding a different way of learning, because the truth is we don't all learn exactly the same way and the classroom environment doesn't work for all kids, and I think that's another thing that's changing in education is we do have some educators who are still very focused on that sort of one style of learning. But I also think there's a lot of educators who are starting to realize, hey, the more I sort of implement different strategies, different tools, different techniques, different ways of doing things, kids can learn differently, right? So I think there's sort of two pieces there. We're kind of forcing the sort of idea of like we have to slow down before we label, because there's sort of a mislabeling situation that has happened because the IEP is a legally binding document, so there is some nuances and some essential components to it. So it's got some important elements. And one of the things we want to sort of balance that against is what does a child need? And does a child need a document to have their needs met? The answer may not be yes, right, it may be, but it may not be. And I think people get really frustrated when in the process they're told no. And it's about how are we documenting the journey? And I think that's one thing I work with with some families is okay, we think there might be something here. How are we keeping track? Because it's one thing to say we're going to do things for children and it's a whole other thing to make sure we're doing those things and sort of seeing, wow, we tried this for three weeks and it's really not working, versus saying we're going to try it and then not do it Right. So those are two things and I think that's where, as a parent, that's where you can start having some dialogues Like how can I check in on the process, how can I support the process at home, that dialogue, so that we're moving through the journey. We've talked a couple of times. Both of us have mentioned what is a psychiatric evaluation. So a psychiatric evaluation is conducted by a psychologist. It is somebody who is trained to do it. It is a very lengthy test. Sometimes it's done in a couple of different settings. So the child will come. Sometimes they do it in one sitting, sometimes they'll do it in two or three. It depends on a child's sort of personality and all kinds of different factors, and it also depends on the psychologist's perspective, on what they sort of, how they like to engage with children. Some want to do it in a shorter sitting. It also depends on how the age of the child being tested. And then what happens with that test is that data is then taken and analyzed and it's put into a report and that's where they start to look at things like learning disabilities, adhd. It's not a test necessarily for ADHD, but they will find markers for it. But that test will sort of look at what kinds of things are we sort of making notes about or noticing, because it's a psychiatric evaluation and it's sort of very test driven. That's why younger children don't always it's not always helpful to do it because it won't give us the data that will actually guide with what we need to know about a child's learning needs. So that's why when people are sort of in kindergarten, grade one, they're like I think we need a test and sometimes, often a psychologist will say no, not yet. We need to wait because the child's not ready for us to get enough valuable data, things like autism. That is not what that test is for, for example. There are other tests for that, for those kinds of diagnoses. So when we're thinking about a psych end evaluation, it's a very specific test done by a very specific person and, as we mentioned before, it's quite costly. So if you do it privately it's thousands of dollars and then if you're doing it with the board I heard the wait time right now is like 18 months.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure in what most words in this video, but I heard it pretty likely. Yeah, it also depends on the severity of the case too, for sure yeah, yeah. So the board. That's why they have they're called consultants. They're employed by the board. They're people especially like consultants, who have a lot of experience, so they support the process too. So it's not really the school's decision as to if a student gets tested or not. It's actually a team decision with the people from the board and we all sit down together with the parents and try to figure things out. And so, yeah, I think sometimes we feel that, oh, if we had a test and we knew how to support the kids, they would do better. But I actually think, as an educator, if I spent some time getting to know a student and now, 20 years in, I could probably figure it out pretty quickly. You know, just taking some time to get to know the student themselves and helping them understand their own learning, I think that actually is probably a lot more valuable than understanding how their mind works in general. Like, of course, there are some times when you really do need to have that testing done in order for the proper programming to take place. But I think a lot of the things that I observed like a teacher could probably accommodate a lot of it in the classroom. My G teachers need to be trained to do these types of accommodations and to be able to understand and I think we've talked about this before, about how a teacher education, particularly in Ontario, because I don't know what it's like in other places hasn't really changed all that much. No, and so you know there's not a whole lot of training as to, you know, observing children and taking the observations and you know translating that into accommodations and practices in the classroom that would benefit, you know that are essential for some but would benefit all.
Speaker 1:And I think I know for parents that's very frustrating because they look to educators for the answers, and that's sort of one of the very tricky things about the usefulness of an IEP in some ways, actually, because when the documents created it's quite lengthy and if you get a psyched out evaluation it's very like many, many, many pages, so many pages. But what's frustrating is teachers are taught to teach neurotypical children. That's the truth and they're taught to teach one way and their differentiated learning will depend on who they're kind of paired with. In terms of the teachers that they do their practicums with, there's a little bit in Teachers College. As we've noted, teachers College hasn't changed a ton a ton. So who is able to differentiate learning in the classroom really does vary by person to person, and so if you're a parent who's listening, you're like it's it is. You are both frustrated the educator and you are equally frustrated with trying to create something that there may be a lack of knowledge around. And I think that's where that sort of shared dialogue and trying to sort of get a team person in on a conversation doesn't mean we have to have an IEP, but it could mean hey, I think my child learns differently. How can we sort of start to approach this idea? What are some ideas that we could put together to try?
Speaker 2:I think that's where, yeah, I think this is where the parent's perspective is really helpful, because there might be some things that the parents can share with the teacher that would help the teacher figure out. Oh, maybe, like, since the parent tells me this about this child, maybe I can try this in the classroom. So I think it's really important to have that communication, that line of communication open, because we can only try things and see how it goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there is no definitive answer.
Speaker 2:There's no experience, but we're not experts in your child, necessarily. Yeah, and so you know, a lot of it is trial and error and sometimes some things work and some things don't may not work. The first time I try it, and like the 20th time, it works.
Speaker 1:So yeah, no, that's something that's super common in the work that I do is, like people will say to me, I've tried it. But to truly try something with a child and I have a couple of podcasts on this, my dishwasher one is about this to truly try something, it's a lot more than you think. Like it's a lot more than you think. And to tag on your point, you are the expert of your child. You actually know quite a bit. And that's where I think sometimes there's a bit of a clash with educators and parents that if we sort of would both step back and say, hey, we're both experts in two different things, but if we bring our expertise together, maybe we can come up with a solution. I think that's super valuable. I mean, I can't sugarcoat the fact that classrooms are out of control, numbers wise, and that adds to this too, but that also adds to the nuances in the classroom. That is one of the reasons children are struggling. It's not because they're necessarily differently thinkers. I mean, I think we all think differently, if I'm being totally honest. But I think part of the challenge is it's very hard to function when you have 30 plus kids in your class.
Speaker 2:It's just really hard and all the different personalities and then the different teaching styles and I think also too, over time, like the classes have gotten larger and I think it's actually great that boards are talking about having more inclusion right, Including students of varying abilities, diverse abilities and I think inclusion actually really is important because we live in a diverse world and we figure out how to work together and I think that's an important thing. That being said, it's without support when you're making, yeah, when the classroom is more diverse, you're also trying to meet more diverse needs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one person is still trying to do that, and so that one teacher is now.
Speaker 2:So you got these big classes and they're also expected to meet the individual needs of each child in that class, and when the needs are very diverse, it is not easy, right, even the most seasoned teacher. It's a challenging thing, and so I guess one of the things we have to remember is that everyone's trying their best. It is a frustrating system because we're trying to do a lot and now, with funding being cut for everything, we're trying to do a lot without a whole lot of resources. Resources, yeah, and so an IEP? Like sure, we can give a child an IEP, but is it going to make a difference if you haven't actually communicated with the teacher in terms of like?
Speaker 1:right, the different steps. Yeah, so there's also something that you and I have talked about that, I think, is something that's lesser known and it's something I want to sort of wrap our conversation up with, and that is there are elements of an IEP that you do have to be really mindful of, especially going into high school, and that is IEPs. So there's let's talk about the difference between accommodations and modifications and the impact that has once you reach high school. So I want to finish this conversation off with how, what's the difference between an accommodation and a modification and what that means for your credits, Because we've talked about this before.
Speaker 2:we talked about it in our podcast about sort of post-secondary Mark, still, I'm glad you're bringing this up because this just becomes a really big question, especially in high school. And so the difference is. So there's such a thing as an they call it a accommodated IEP or modified IEP. I'm sure they go. Does that mean? So an accommodation is Like doing something in the classroom. You know it could be again. Things like extra time, chunking things into smaller pieces, like these are strategies that we can use to accommodate the learning needs of a lot of students, and by accommodating we're being thoughtful of what they need and trying to, you know, teach in a way that works for them. That's accommodation. Modification is when you are altering the curriculum expectations for the child. So in elementary I've seen IEPs. You know where students who are in grade seven are doing grade four level writing yeah, grade four level. So that is a modification. You're changing the curriculum expectation for that student's grade level. So when you're in elementary it's less of a big deal because you know in elementary you are transferred from grade to grade Whether you've met expectations or not. You know they'll write on the report card that you know so and so has met expectations, or they haven't met them, or, and so on and so forth, but they still go on to the next grade, age wise, and I just jump in with.
Speaker 1:The reason they do that in elementary is because the theory behind it is if we modify an elementary and children start to see success, they will be more motivated. Now this is where sort of the next thing shifts. So the reason I mean because you can't fail in elementary at least you can't fail in Ontario in elementary so you keep going forward and if you have modifications, the theory there is if we're encouraging kids, that they see that they are performing well, usually there'll be like two report cards, like there's the report card that there'd be a secondary one that says okay, this, this mark has actually been modified to such and such a level. So although it may say B, it's actually a B on a lower grade.
Speaker 2:So in Ontario the report would say you know the B or whatever the grade is, and if there's a box that says IEP and on the IP, the parent goes, looks at the IP and it says, oh, the student is doing like you know. I'll say grade three level work in grade five, yeah, and they got 60% in grade three level work and right Five. So that's complicated because nobody knows where to look.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it is tricky, but the point is to try and like build the confidence right. Right. But where this really impacts and this shocks a lot of parents, I was shocked when I learned it. I was like, really, this is fascinating. So once we hit high school, what? When we have modified work, we can no longer just pass along. It can mean that we won't get our credits. That's right.
Speaker 2:So this is where. So I think when the system of modifications was created in elementary, yes, it was something to motivate students, to help them not feel you know my gosh like I'm so behind everyone, which is not a bad thing, but somewhere in that there had to be a conversation about well then, how do you help them catch up and be ready for high school? Because what happens in high school is so the students come and you know the curriculum is taught like they've mastered grade seven and eight work. And so if they haven't had so, if a student who was in grade eight was doing grade five level math and literacy and now they're in a grade nine course, they've essentially not really done middle school in math and writing, and so now they're struggling in grade nine. So you know, because they were modified. Now in high school again, you can get accommodations. That doesn't affect the curriculum level. But and I don't see this very often in high school because what happens is like if child's curriculum is modified in a course to the point where they're not learning enough to go on to the next level, then they're not really earning your credit Right. So that's what happens and so that's the struggle when students come to high school, especially the ones who were on a modified IEP in elementary.
Speaker 1:And this is not explained.
Speaker 2:No elementary parents like they are not aware you know they're coming to grade nine, not actually technically prepared to go through the curriculum because they you know they were modified so much in elementary.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:A lot of parents don't understand that. I've actually had this conversation with parents many times and a lot of them are shocked, right and then. And then sometimes they know they were like, we know they were modified, but so what can we do about it? In grade nine Right. So you know, definitely a student will get accommodations. And then the question is like can we modify? So the decision to modify again, it comes down to the school, the school team, the school principal. And if it is decided that a child gets modifications in a course, the question is, how much? And is it going to be modified so much that they won't even earn the credit? And if they don't earn the credit, then what is the point?
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, so these are all the questions, and but I think I think it's such an important point to make because elementary parents who have IEPs very few that I talked to are made aware of this process that if their child is getting modified work in elementary, that the long term trajectory on this is the potential to not have high school credits, that we need to be mindful that we're working towards a goal, that the IEP is working towards something, and so I think sort of that idea of like an IEP is the catch all fix, all it's not. It's. The goal is to support children with their different learning needs, to support them with what's not working in the classroom, while also being mindful that accommodations are going to assist them and they can have accommodations no matter what. In fact, everyone in the classroom should have accommodations by this definition. But modification does have a lasting impact that you have to be mindful of and keep track of, because if you don't earn your high school credits, you can't graduate, right that's that's the sort of hard truth, yeah. So it's, it's it's something to be really sort of cognizant of. And when you go through and if you're doing the team meetings and things like that, I know for some parents that can be super frustrating because it's not really sort of always tappled with sort of the way it needs to be to make sure people are aware in the process.
Speaker 2:that is happening Because the systems, like the systems, are so big that they forget that parents don't know all the nuances which is why you know parents are asking why do educators have so many acronyms? Like because you? know the system assumes there's some. You know, the people know all this stuff, yeah, so a lot of it, too is like I spend a lot of time telling parents and explaining how the system works, and I think it's good when parents ask questions, right, and as we're talking like this is something that you know, I was remembering something as I was talking to someone about an IEP once for their kid, and this parent said you know, the school wants my child to be modified, you know, down a grade so that you know they get A's on their report cards instead of C's. Right, and she said to the school you know what? If my child can get, you know, b's and C's at grade level, I would rather that actually, than them being modified so they can achieve an A. So you know, there's these kinds of conversations too. Is like what really is the purpose of modification? Yeah, right, that's. And if and if you know, if you're a parent sitting in a meeting and the school's like you know, maybe we should modify your child's curriculum, the question would be like why is that this comes and they do grade level work if they can? Yeah, if they can do work at grade level, perhaps, you know, not to you know the, you know 90% or whatever like could they? You know 50% of it, 60% of it. Yeah, at grade level that might actually be better in the long run than you know child achieving an A or you know a 90%, but they're achieving it like two grade levels people.
Speaker 1:I think this is a great tie into our podcast on redefining success preschool to post secondary, because why do all kids need to have A's? They don't Not. Everyone needs an A especially not in the ministry school. I know that's a shocking thought, because not everyone is academic and not everyone is headed for sort of a certain tier or career that's university driven and, I think, a future conversation, because we have it on a personal level all the time, you and I. That's sort of like the world is changing and I think some of the things that we value as careers right now aren't going to be the sort of same ones that are going to be valued soon enough, because chat, gpt is not a joke, ai is not a joke and the way the world is changing, like you mentioned earlier, like voice to text is something that everybody use and we said to have all kinds of accommodations and special technology and very expensive things to make it happen, and now it's just like what we use. I think that's going to have a huge impact on the employment landscape. So I think this idea that an IEP would be sort of playing a role in ensuring A's, I think that's where we have to step back and sort of think about what are we defining as success? And you know, sometimes a little bit of difficulty and failure. I mean, if you talk to any great success, right, put a big name out there of any. Whether it's an athlete or an inventor, they will all say the exact same thing the thing that made them successful was failure, because that's how they learned. So if we think C is a failure, I don't know, that kind of makes my head spin a little bit. I have to be honest. I mean, I think the focus really should be okay.
Speaker 2:Like how did you do? Do you want to improve for next time? You know, I think I, as an educator, I tend to focus more on the effort yeah, versus the result. And ultimately, I think once students learn to persevere, it's also improve. It's that initial like oh my gosh, I failed. So you know, when a student fails, you can go either like they're going to just totally shut down because you know what's the point, or they look at it and go, okay, what can I learn from this so that I can improve for next time? Right, the question is for parents like how do you approach it in terms of talking about? You know, when your child makes a mistake, or maybe they don't get an A, and I mean like, okay, I'm, I'm a, I'm a person who always likes school. So I've tried to be very cognizant of how I talk to my kids and this could be a conversation for another time is not necessarily linked to IEPs. You know, like what does an A really mean? Yeah, going back to, what do you define as success? So what is the point of the IEP? Is it because you know your child's getting 60s and you rather get them to get 90s? Or they're getting Cs and maybe they should, you know, have A's? As we have this conversation before about Markson Elementary School, I wouldn't worry so much about whether they're getting not right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, I think I think a great sort of ending point is that's not what IEPs are for, right, that's not what they're for there to support differentiated learning in the classroom for kids who don't learn the way the majority of the classroom is learning. It's not to boost marks, it's not to make a difference, it's not to teach perseverance, it's to really dig into. Is there a learning disability here? Is there a neurodiversity here? How can we sort of identify those pieces to help those kids also be successful in their learning environments?
Speaker 2:Those are great questions. They are Questions for another day. I haven't even talked about what happens after high school, so that could be a discussion for another day.
Speaker 1:We have all the podcasts, Absolutely Well. Thank you for joining me. Thanks for having me. You're thinking we can talk forever?
Speaker 2:We can go on forever, but I think the podcast probably should not be 10 hours long.
Speaker 1:No, but we will come back because I think there's like several sub topics here that are worth investigating. I think just a good idea to have a little bit of an overview and, yeah, we'll have to figure out. If you have an idea for what you'd like us to talk about next, you can always submit it at targadoca. Otherwise, I look forward to our next conversation next month. Amy, I'll be back, take care.